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Stuart@StudioMiniatures



Posts : 47
Join date : 2015-03-30

PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Wed Feb 07 2018, 16:36

I am away on holiday next week and wont be back until the start of March, Eddie will you be in on Sunday? If so I can pop in and pick up my faction sheet and find out how to list my orders before the campaign starts in March Smile
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Ed McKie

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Join date : 2011-01-30
Location : Prestwick

PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Tue Feb 06 2018, 22:28

I don't have an axe to grind, or wish to "sour" your experience. I never realised starting with a balanced force would be such a problem ?

I will hand out the sheets as I have them, it will be handy for players to know the names of their troops and to keep a record as the month's go by.

Levy will not generate a SAGA dice as per the rules.

You were correct Scot I only felt factions with a similar composition at the start would make it more fun.

Levy/skirmishers are not great for the Scots like most of the other factions, so if you don't want them then that's fair enough by me.
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ScotR



Posts : 238
Join date : 2013-11-25

PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Tue Feb 06 2018, 19:42

No, I think I understood, I was saying why I don't believe it would work, or that we need to incentivise the use of Levy. If people want to use them, that's their choice, we don't need to manage that choice beyond our own roster.
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George

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PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Tue Feb 06 2018, 18:51

I think you may have misunderstood my earlier post Scot,
I used my earlier suggestion as an example of using a carrot in place of a stick, it was in no way me trying to reintroduce my suggestion.
If you reread it you will see i said "if Eddie is set on trying to get players to use levy then we could consider an incentive option.
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ScotR



Posts : 238
Join date : 2013-11-25

PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Tue Feb 06 2018, 16:33

There's no need for someone else to take on the bookkeeping. What needs to stop is inventing solutions to problems we don't have.

It was agreed we wouldn't wait for Saga 2nd edition, we'd use 1st edition. So cherry-picking 2nd ed rules with a lack of context is potentially game-breaking. The rule of levy generating Saga dice is offset by the fact a Warlord generates only 1 in 2nd ed.

The campaign system is skewed to give you more Levy as the seasons go on through the special rules, and fate tables, than it does Warriors or Hearthguard. That organic progression is all the incentive needed to use them. I ended up fielding 2 full units of them by the end of the last campaign, so there's no need to foist them on people, just because it might be nice.

Any house-ruling should be agreed by all players in the campaign. The only potential issue we had from the 1st campaign was the need to manage the number of games played in a season. I proposed that we stick to the game's rules by having 4 week seasons to arrange a game within, and if you are unable to you must use the danegeld rules. If we need to restrict it further, I suggested the house-rule of not being able to target a player you played in the previous season, but that too needs agreed upon by all.

You'd have saved yourself that writing had you spoken to us all first, Eddie. We appreciate that you've been running this for us, but these restrictions to problems that never existed are just souring the experience before we have begun.
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Ed McKie

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PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Tue Feb 06 2018, 16:07

Don't have an argument with all the points you have made, still feel it would be fairer to have all the forces starting with the same configuration.
After the campaign starts factions will fairly quickly alter to suite what you want. I don't see any problem with having a unit of skirmishers, using skirmishers adds a different tactical flavour to the game.

I have spent time writing up all the sheets and attempting to get this new campaign started again but I am very happy for someone else to do the "bookkeeping".
I have no problem with that, any volunteers ?
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George

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PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Tue Feb 06 2018, 15:47

I doesn't really change what I am starting with but this is why I suggested using the (levy generate a command dice rule) to give players an incentive to use levy rather than a restriction to force their use.

To save any argument i would suggest removing the restriction.
If Eddie is set on trying to get players to use levy then we could consider an incentive option.
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Stuart@StudioMiniatures



Posts : 47
Join date : 2015-03-30

PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Tue Feb 06 2018, 15:33

I of course was not in the last campaign so can't comment on it but although I understand the reason behind having everyone starting with the same force make up (making the field even on day one) I do have to agree that shouldn't each player decide what units they take at the start as long as it doesn't exceed the points agreed or any rules in the book. Just me two cents worth Laughing
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David McQ



Posts : 77
Join date : 2014-11-26

PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Tue Feb 06 2018, 13:23

It does seem like a bit of a weird decision Eddie. I would have preferred to be able to play with th models I actually have At the start, rather than having to borrow or source them from somewhere.

What was the reasoning behind It?
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ScotR



Posts : 238
Join date : 2013-11-25

PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Tue Feb 06 2018, 13:13

Because it's been written down that's how it is? That's just ridiculous.

It was a nonsense concept in the first place, and perhaps you should have discussed this with all the players before making that decision. House rules such as that should be agreed by all players before setting them in stone. None of this was neccessary last time, so why bother know?

Still waiting for the reasoning behind it.
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Ed McKie

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PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Tue Feb 06 2018, 13:01

No problem Stuart.

Scot all factions will be starting with 1 Hearthguard unit, 2 Warrior units and 1 Levy/Skirmisher unit. All the sheets are written and that is what we will all start with. Once the 8 turn campaign starts you can build units as you please.


Last edited by Ed McKie on Wed Feb 07 2018, 02:00; edited 1 time in total
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Stuart@StudioMiniatures



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PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Tue Feb 06 2018, 09:07

Thanks Eddie, thought I'd lost it.
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ScotR



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PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Tue Feb 06 2018, 08:20

Reread it, yes, the example is clearer about it. The wording in the resilience rule is that if the Warlord suffers 2 or more hits, and would be removed as a casualty, you may remove a non-Levy figure within VS in his place. Whereas the example shows it on a hit-by-hit basis. Another inconsistency of these rules.

Still don't get why you're determining people's force composition for them. As I said on Sunday, making all these unnecessary rules is needlessly complicating things. If it were required, it'd be in the rules already. There are already built in restrictions to force construction in terms of your Land/Wealth/Rep, so why dictate more? If the game is balanced at 1 Hearthguard = 2 Warriors = 4 Levy, it shouldn't matter what people spend their initial 4pts on, as it should all work out equally.

It's not needed, and I'm yet to hear a reasonable argument in support of it.
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Ed McKie

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PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Mon Feb 05 2018, 20:09

Stuart I have your Viking faction sheet.
Brian will be using Anglo-Danish again.
David will be using the same faction as he used last campaign.


Stuart and Scot think you should read the Resilience and Side by Side rules on page 37 and 38. Seems Scot what you originally thought was indeed correct, multiple hits require multiple sacrifices otherwise your Warlord might die.

Initial forces will consist of 1 Hearthguard, 2 Worriors and 1 Levy/ Skirmisher units, after this you can build as you like.

Orders and alliances must be given before the last Sunday in February so the fighting will start on the 4th of March.


Last edited by Ed McKie on Wed Feb 07 2018, 02:04; edited 1 time in total
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Stuart@StudioMiniatures



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PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Mon Feb 05 2018, 19:33

Eddie did you pick up my faction sheet yesterday? I thought maybe Scot picked it up by mistake but he doesn't have it.
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Ed McKie

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PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Wed Jan 31 2018, 13:04

Once again you make valid points, however many of the factions still available can be fielded by using most dark ages figures.

We can limit games as you say which could work, however any leader who has a blood feud against another might wish to attack their hated enemy every season ?

I agree with 9 players then 8 Seasons would be better than 6.
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ScotR



Posts : 238
Join date : 2013-11-25

PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Wed Jan 31 2018, 10:01

Like I said, I'm alright with the special abilities rolled, they were done randomly so it'll be as equally random as if I did it.

If we're restricting it to one of each faction, that again causes issues, dependant on poeple's collections. I only have Vikings and Saxons, for instance. StuartH is getting StuartR's Anglo-Saxons to use. That would mean I need to change to Jomsvikings, as an unused Viking faction, and Jomsvikings are a faction that don't quite work in Age of the Wolf - for instance, they can't take Levy.

Reading the faqs on the forum, the designers say that's how it goes, you lose out, but suggest house-rules to even things up. Such as allowing the fate roll to be rerolled if it lands on levy recruitment, or substituting the levy for an equivalent number of warriors at the exchange rate of 1 warrior = 2 levy. That's something to agree on as a group if it's going to be stipulated that the factions are artificially restricted.

To be honest, I'm not sure why we need to do that. I understand it promotes variety in the choices of faction available, but looking at the list already, you have 6 different factions covering 9 players, and I imagine David will take his Norse-Gael again, so that makes 7. This was traditionally a time of inter-faction warfare, with Jarl Ragner vs Jarl Borg, Mercia vs Wessex, etc. We're not in a position where everyone wants Vikings, so why restrict it?

I get the point regarding having too many games, we discussed this at the end of the last campaign, but I can't see a workable solution, other than what's in the book - Danegeld. We didn't allow for that in the last campaign, instead we just stretched out seasons to accommodate games. But if we're saying for this campaign, we are restricting seasons to a month/4 weeks, then if people can't arrange a game within that time frame, tough. Fall back on the Danegeld rules, that's why they're there.

It's unlikely anyone is going to be in a position that everyone picks them as a target in one season, the most games anyone played - to my knowledge - is 3. And if you're efficient about it, you can get two games done in an afternoon. Yes, it may mean someone takes an advantage due to playing multiple games in a season, but attrition rates dictate that it's unlikely they'll capitalise on the momentum gained from that.

What we could rule is that you can't choose to campaign or raid against someone you fought in the previous season, or even previous 2 seasons, unless the campaign system dictates it. That way, with 9 of us playing over 8 seasons, we should have ample scope for variety and the avoidance of backing up games to play.
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Ed McKie

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PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Wed Jan 31 2018, 01:20

Your points are relevant.

No problem with Stuart taking control of one of the remaining factions. Only one of each faction this campaign.

If you are not happy with the traits and special rules then we can dice for them all again if you like this Sunday. I will just print another 8 sheets and we can dice for everything again, suits me fine.

We will need to limit the fights a faction is involved in to 2 or 3 maximum per season otherwise the seasons might drag out for far to long. It is unlikely but possibly for one faction to be involved in 8 fights in one season if they win half of them then the campaign might well be over before it has barely began?

The King in the North
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ScotR



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PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Tue Jan 30 2018, 21:06

Also, did say Stuart H is looking to join in too. I'll be in Sunday to teach him how to play it.
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ScotR



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Join date : 2013-11-25

PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Tue Jan 30 2018, 21:04

While I can live with our abilities being rolled up for us - it wouldn't have taken long to do that in person - I don't agree with having a standard force composition. Each faction has different strengths or weaknesses, or even restrictions, and what people take is also dependant upon what they have in their collection. So no, not on board with that.

Also, how do you plan restricting number of games played to 2? What is the criteria for that? Who makes the decision on who fights who and when?
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Ed McKie

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PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Tue Jan 30 2018, 15:34

So I could make up the sheets George, Mick and myself sorted out all the traits and special rules for each Warlord.

George. Norman, The Great, Far Traveller, War Crafty.

Mick, Anglo Danish, Scout, Oathsworn, Far Traveller.

Eddie, Scots, Hero of the Viking Age, Golden Horde, Blood Feud.

Brian, ?, The Conqueror, Hard Ruler, Noble Mien.

David, ?, Hero of the Viking Age, God's Eye, Landwaster.

Scot, Anglo Saxon, Hero of the Viking Age, Oathsworn, Hard Ruler.

Bill, Viking, Son of Odin, Fearsome, Resolute.

Scott, Welsh, Great Ruler, Golden Horde, God's Eye.

It was suggested that each faction should start with one Hearthguard unit two warrior units and one skirmish unit.
Also each faction may only fight twice in a season.
Hope this is OK.

The King in the North
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George

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PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Tue Jan 23 2018, 23:32

If you do manage it Scot, I will be taking notes on how you did it. Lol.
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ScotR



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PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Tue Jan 23 2018, 22:58

Stuart Hamilton is considering joining in too. And I've changed my mind. I'm gonna go Saxons, cos I did say I was going to try and prove George wrong about them, lol.
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George

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PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Tue Jan 23 2018, 18:38

With Eddie's assistance with some figures I shall be trying the Normans this time. (no one tried them last time so why not)
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Ed McKie

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PostSubject: Re: Saga campaign   Tue Jan 23 2018, 14:44

So Scot you will again command the Viking horde.
Will start organising factions and warlords over the next two Sundays.
Campaign will be six or eight seasons as last campaign.
Will get orders for first season on or about the 11th of February once all "paper work" has been completed and factions are known.
We need to take half an hour on the 4th to "iron out" problems and make clear some of the rules.

Hope this helps you Scot.

From

The King in the North
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